Personality Zone

Posted by JackDermody on Jul 24, 2008 Once a person is judged to be a bonehead by a Rational -- especially when the "bonehead" knows otherwise -- how does one get the Rational's attention ever again? I'm looking for an answer that transcends a twenty-year wait, the acquisition of a PhD, and a debate win on a national stage.

Posted by estanford on Jul 24, 2008 In my experience, even that won't do it. (If anything, the NT is appalled at how unjust the world must be, for such a bonehead to win high honors and applause with his sophistic subtleties!) A possible heuristic is to follow Kurt Godel's line, viz. that "recognizing what is good in them, serves to take the sting out of skeptical objections". See if you can adopt their position and reason it out to a logical conclusion that relates to the issue, and check with them to see if that follows their line of reasoning. It's likely that you're talking past one another, so narrowing the field of discourse to just one person or just the other person's argument for a while can bring clarity and mutual respect to the argument as a whole.

Posted by Moose on Jul 24, 2008 See if you can find a reliable source (especially one that could be used in a research paper, is unbiased, etc) that contradicts the rational's argument, and/or the facts that the rational's argument is based on. Don't actually tell him/her what the source said; have him/her read it for his/herself. This will have the twofold effect of (possibly) forcing him/her to abandon the argument, while also bolstering you in his/her eyes, as now you have a proven ability to perform research and acquire facts on your own. This necessitates taking you more seriously. Even if the rational can prove that the source was wrong, or its argument was logically flawed, you have now shown yourself to do research in the process of framing or defending a belief, which will greatly help your image. However, if you refuse to admit that you are wrong in the face of insurmountable evidence, it will all have been for not. If you are not open-minded, then you will never earn the respect of a rational, even if the rational is also close-minded :P.

Posted by unders on Jul 25, 2008 Hi Jack, A good way is no matter what to always stay clam, and make sure the rational is calm too. If he/she isn't, nothing you say, rational or not, will go through. At the end of the day, rationals want to be loved to. I think the answer to your question is different depending on the type of rational But at the end of the day, to gain back respect, you have to convince them why you are RIGHT as well (don't try to prove they are wrong, it'll probably just make rationals more intolerant of you - even if you're actually right): .................................................................................................................................................................................... For INTP, the best way is to simple talk about perspective. Try to paint a different perspective with SUBJECTIVE LOGIC, or just paint a different image. Bring him/her to a bigger picture or a smaller picture. You can talk about how others might see things differently. ............................................................................................................................................................................. For ENTP, try to appeal to their intuition. Especially the P ones, relate how things can be the say, or that you guys are essentially talking about the same thing. Good way is to bring in topics that ties to the argument to bring him/her to what you're about. Remember, the key is to show that you CAN be rational and logical. .......................................................................................... I think ENTJ's are the hardest and frankly I can't stand most of them. They organize the world into very black/white and sometimes they dont take in enough information before they make a decision. It's the extraverted thinking at work. Best way to convince them that you are RIGHT as well is to quote scientific research or authorities they respect. In a sense, you are introduce newer and more information so they can use their Extraverted Thinking to see things differently. I notice that alot of ENTJs actually make alot of errors in judgement not due to bad logic, but that they are too fast to judge and hasn't see the full picture yet. .......................................................................................... I have a good amount of INTJ friends. They are usually really claim and chill... but this is deceptive for the fact that they are probably the most confident of the rationals. When they disagree with you or has marked you as "dumb", they probably won't yell or fight and simply ignore what you have to say. Most of them don't try to argue with you too much unless you are trying to change their minds. A good way is to just let them be. However in situations where it's a couple decision and you would like to change and INTJ's mind, the best is to probably quote authorities and examples. ENTJs may appear the most stubborn, but INTJs are probably the most stubborn. I have argued with ENTJs (my dad), and he never yields. But, i know that after the argument when he is claim and alone, you will think about thing and actually change his mind. Although, he probably never admit it. .......................................................................................... Don't embarrass a rational in front of other people, that will probably get you blacklisted. .......................................................................................... Those are the things I can think of. I hope it somewhat helped!! : ) .......................................................................................... Take care!

Posted by Pat on Jul 25, 2008 And from the other side of the fence - I get so frustrated with people for whom logical considerations mean nothing. For example: if they want me to do something that can't be done till 8am Monday morning, what good does it do to nag me all weekend? I said I'd do it! For another example, "logical consequences" simply do not work with some people. You know. "If you want X, you have to have Y"? And their notion of a proper argument is that it shouldn't be that way, or they don't want it to be that way, or the rules say --- as if common sense and reason were mere babbling nonsense in Martian. And they say I, an INTP, have no common sense? Duh --- no, I do NOT understand. How do you reason with people like these? With a club?

Posted by unders on Jul 25, 2008 Hi Pat, Being an INTP myself, i've had similar problems and understand your plan. What I;ve found that works for me is to carefully use our INTP skills to observe the other and see what is the "rule" they play by. Then use their own rules toward them. ...................................................................................... It sounds like the problem you're having is probably with guardians. A good thing to say to them is "if you want me to get this done, why don't you be responsible and help me out. I need time to reflex...etc etc. I won't be able to get it done with someone over my shoulders. Please be kind and help me out." .................................................................................... BAsicallly appeal to their responsibility and how they should help out.

Posted by LisaFairhurst on Jul 25, 2008 I've been around a lot of Rationals. Most of them are capable of changing their opinion from bonehead to reasonably intelligent moron. My brother is an Architect. I'm not sure where he places me, and he refuses to discuss it. He's been like this for the last 16 years, and I don't know why. It hurts. He used to think of me as smart. Anyway, other Rationals show more willingness to reassess a person. Also, many of the ones I know are very slow to consign anyone to bonehead category.

Posted by Ranson on Jul 25, 2008 I dislike to think of others as stupid. I assume everyone is reasonable, and can be civil most of the time (INTP). On the other hand when I see someone make one stupid decision after another, especially one's that are not in their rational self-intrest I just lose it. I hate hearing someone complain about their situation when they made an irrational decision, especially one with major consequences.

Posted by JackDermody on Jul 25, 2008 These resonses have been very useful. Thank you. Just a heads up to Rationals: Lisa's comment that "it hurts" results (for many of us Idealists at least) from a range reactions from dismissive tone to complete silence. Let me repeat: IT HURTS. Many Rationals have been astonished at the wise giant they lurks inside many a "bonehead" -- enough wisdom, in fact, to catalyze an elixir for a still-sleeping genius within the Rational. Think Holmes' Watson. Or Ike's Mamie. Or Hillary's Bill. Or Barack's Michelle.

Posted by unders on Jul 26, 2008 Or John Adam's wife Abigail. (great show by the way). I hope i find my own...

Posted by unders on Jul 26, 2008 Also, i think most emotionally mature rationals don't just dismiss people and label them as bonehead. I don't myself, and you can tell which rationals do. I actually have the most beef with the rationals who dismiss people, many the J ones i found. P's may be more open-minded to take to different ideas and are more likely to accept different forms of intelligence.

Posted by unders on Jul 26, 2008 Jack, I like to point one on thing though. You say it hurts when rationals dismiss you, and I totally agree. But, on the other side of things, i think what hurts a rational the most is if people are inconsistent or don't keep their words. I think integrity is really important to a rational (especially intps), myself at least. I get really bummed out when people don't keep their promises or lie to me. It really hurts me. I actually get less hurt if they offend me but are at least honest with me, because people are entitled to their opinions.

Posted by FPrince on Jul 26, 2008 These are excellent articles. I have one question: Why did you chose the word 'argue' for the Artisans and Guardians and the word 'fight' for Rationals and Idealists? Was this intentional, or did you do it to align with "The Fighting Series"?

Posted by FPrince on Jul 26, 2008 From a personal ENTP perspective, there is no point in arguing or fighting with me. Remaining calm is very important for me, so I will remain quiet or outwardly agree with people most of the time. Another tactic I use is to say "Hmmm...I didn't know that" or "...I don't know about that" when someone presents me with a statement that seems designed to start an arguement. On the rare occassions that I exhibit anger, I've heard people say things like "Oh, it's good to know you're human"....which I find to be a very bizarre thing to say. Why would someone think it was good to see that I can get angry? Perhaps the other temperaments can help me out here.

Posted by Perseus on Jul 26, 2008 It is hubris. The process is Intuition followed by justification. If the intuition is wrong to start with the INTJ won't change, not after all the hard work could be wasted. Not if his reputation would be impaired.

Posted by LalaChan on Jul 26, 2008 I love all of my rational friends to death....sometimes...no Just kidding I love them. Most of my friends are rationals (with the occasional nf here and there). I've never had a problem with INTP's..we seem to get along very well and don' really ever argue, just discuss. The ones I get into it with...the ONE I get into it most is a certain ENTP. It's strange because I have another ENTP friend who I get along famously with! However, this one just gets on my nerves sometimes. It's mainly when he's around the other entp (I don't want to put capslock on). We'll be talking and when I add my two cents, what do I get?"no..just no..you're stupid..what? ..just no." I'd rather have it, "that's stupid" ...It's strange though because when we're alone he agrees with me a lot and we have great conversations. He's never been one for schedules (duh) so we don't hang out as much anymore. Still, I've found that when he calls me stupid..all I have to do is say "ya, thats nice" and then turn to the other entp and keep talking. That normally cools his jets until chris , the other entp, rephrases my statement so igor can understand..then he retracts his statement of my being stupid.

Posted by JackDermody on Jul 26, 2008 To FPrince: why is it good to know that you can get angry? To Idealists, at least, emotions are a valuable logic. How often don't we all have to rely on the answer to "What does your gut say?" When our subconscious cannot express itself in words, it does so in physical responses and emotions. We owe it to ourselves to look at emotions like anger and dig deeply as to their possible origin and true meaning. It's not "logical" to me to be anything but thankful for emotions. And, as you know, there's a school of thought that squelching them too much can be darn right unhealthy.

Posted by Perseus on Jul 26, 2008 Two Intuitives can clash most horribly if they come from different planets. Interplanetary warfare by two medicine men of different tribes. Even worse if there are two sets of satellites (supporters). Imagine an intuitive Celtic supporter meeting an intuitive Rangers one! Or a Brighton and Crystal Palace clash where the lifestyles are so opposed as well.

Posted by unders on Jul 26, 2008 Perseus, I agree with you. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- JAck, I think what rationals and Ts try to do is CONTROL their emotionals, and that is very unheathy. However, Fs who leaves everything and all lifes decisions to their feelings can run into alot of trouble too. The best thing to do is to UNDERSTAND your own emotions and why you feel that way. Is it because the other person has trampled on your values? Or, are you having a bad day and being unreasonable? Emotions is a very good indication of your true self and your subconcious. But, your true self may not be fair and can be too impulsive. I think it can be really dangerous for people who are too swayed by emotions and dont think about why they feel that way. This may be a bit to extreme, but look at what hitler was able to do in germany because he was such a great speaker! If you go back and read his speeches, it actually makes no logical sense. Ultimately, I believe the key is to let your emotionals out, but always make an attempt to understand them before you rely on them for life support.

Posted by gemini612 on Jul 26, 2008 Hmmm...I don't recall arguing with a rational. I've learn to listen to them and follow through their reasoning.

Posted by LisaFairhurst on Jul 26, 2008 gemini, I'm married to a Rational. We've done plenty of arguing. Following a line of reasoning isn't sufficient when the bottom line is unacceptable. Somewhere the basic principles need to change. For example, when my husband says that he finds the kids tiring, that they don't make sense, and that it's impossible to measure progress when dealing with them and then concludes that he doesn't get much out of spending time with them, that doesn't work for me. The logic is clear. The conclusion doesn't work.

Posted by gemini612 on Jul 27, 2008 I forgot to mention that when I feel I can't get my point across, I don't bother arguing which is also why I don't argue much with rationals lol. ((hugs Lisa)) Okay, I'm scared to marry a rational lol.

Posted by unders on Jul 27, 2008 Hi Lisa, I would say logic isn't always good nor appropriate. And, I think it's true especially when it come to family and issue of love. I think the statement your husband made is quite selfish (...sorry to point that out). But, it's not really suppose to be about what he gets out of it, but what the family gets out of it as a whole. Thats just my 2 cents on the issue.

Posted by LisaFairhurst on Jul 27, 2008 unders, just to clarify, the incident with my husband was something from years ago. I try to avoid making him look bad currently, only in his young and stupid past. .................................................... gemini, what can I say? I've always been attracted to Rationals, especially Masterminds. I'm not sorry I married one. The nice thing is that I always have respect for him (except when he can't find the thing right in front of his face). I wouldn't do well with a spouse I couldn't respect.

Posted by Ranson on Jul 28, 2008 "I try to avoid making him look bad currently, only in his young and stupid past." Ouch! Lol.

Posted by LisaFairhurst on Jul 28, 2008 Ranson, I see you caught the sarcasm. Also, one more clarification. When my husband and I had the go-around that I described, he already knew he was being selfish. He was under no illusions that logic justified his conclusions. All the same, I didn't know where to go from there.

Posted by creativejani on Jul 28, 2008 The thing is, emotions are what govern our actions and thoughts are actions; also thoughts create emotions of course. So when logic fails or you don't know where to go from here - pay attention to the feelings and be sympathetic to what's really underneath the statements. There's usually one feeling that won't go away until it's acknowledged. I have a rational mum and I've learned to ignore the seemingly rational statements when there's really an unstated emotion behind them. Until that's dealt withe the arguments just keep changing - moving the goal posts! That annoyed me for year until I realised she needs help with her feelings.

Posted by Ranson on Jul 29, 2008 Lisa, your post sounds like classic introverted feeling. I know I'm wrong but I don't care, without feeling any guilt.

Posted by Perseus on Jul 29, 2008 I have penned the ESTJ as a bully. They knoiw what is right (according to the agenda written by somebody else) and they want to force it on others. It is a major problem with bureaucracy.

Posted by LisaFairhurst on Jul 29, 2008 Perseus, some ESTJs are bullies. The head boss at my job is an ESTJ. Yes, he has some very strong beliefs. I do prefer to stay under his radar. However, I have a lot of respect for him, and he does an excellent job. We're fortunate to have him.

Posted by unders on Jul 30, 2008 I have no say I cant stand most extraverted thinkers. Something about that thinking just seems so cold. And also, from a rational point of view...i think pure extraverted thinking causes a flaw in logic because the person using it usually dismisses so much information that he can make the logic towards any direction.

Posted by peragratrix on Aug 1, 2008 unders: "Don't embarrass a rational in front of other people, that will probably get you blacklisted." - That is so true! This article and your response were right on target! Lisa - reading your post about the arguments between you and your husband definitely brings back memories of conflicts at home when I was growing up. Although my family never really "fought" in the conventional sense, my Rational dad and I (INTJ, INTP respectively) had a distinct way of expressing frustration/anxiety/negative emotions: creating and stubbornly sticking to arguments that we knew were *valid* (logically correct) but *unsound* (the premises were not true). It was as if we were daring our sparring partner to say we were wrong. Of course, most of the time we didn't even agree with what we were saying (or at least we wouldn't in our better moments) -- and this underscores Creativejani's point that such arguments are really your Rational's way of communicating negative feelings that may not even be related to the kids at all. Here's a fun example: Before my grandparents would visit (an event that makes everyone in my family irritable), I would pick fights with my dad - say, about the music played at the church we attended. It would get heated in a contained, logical way (even though we actually held the same opinion!), eating lunch would be strained and silent, but we both recognized that the argument released our pent-up emotions, and we were fine when the relatives actually arrived. My Idealist mother (INFJ) however usually didn't take too well to that kind of expression. :) Thankfully, those teenage years are behind me now, and both my father and I have learned to communicate negative emotions more directly - even though I'm still probably not going to cry on somebody's shoulder. So my advice is to think about other potential sources of stress (work? sleep habits? lack of free time?) and address what's really bothering him because it sounds like his argument could be a front for something else.

Posted by Shanista on Aug 7, 2008 Superior sources of information. As an INTJ, I like to be proven wrong. An opportunity for improvement and to be "more correct" in the future is priceless. ;)

Posted by Perseus on Aug 10, 2008 The ENFP personality type is called by some as the Champion. This implies to a ESFJ that he is Champion the Wonder Horse, and because the ESFJ is so ego bound, he unnaturally thinks the other is envious and after his job. That's because he has not got a thinking component very strongly in his personality. The ENFP is not a Champion at all. He is just like Columbo the Detective, a threat to somebody fiddling the accounts, or someone who has bumped off a rival. It is the ENTP that is the visionary inspiror (my interpretation) as it requires thinking to devise.

Posted by Perseus on Aug 10, 2008 I think you probably have to to embarass an NT on the N bit to get blacklisted. This is when ideals clash. Too different ideals are not compatible. Then is is virtually War. Who is going to be the arbiter? The SJ public? The Dogs of War (ISTJ) or the Wolves (ENTJ) are to be preferred because of the Thinking component. Or the Hawks (INTJ) ?

Posted by dcurfman on Aug 16, 2008 As far as name-calling and blacklisting goes. Both are the product of insecurity, not reason. If you're dealing with this, understand that you don't need them to have a better opinion of you, they need a better attitude. My response is generally some form of, "Grow up or get lost." One can expect them to choose the latter most of the time. Small loss. As far a arguing with healthy rationals, the structure of their logic is usually sound, but the facts of life being what they are, they generally proceed from pretty shaky predicates. You may immediately recognize that their conclusion entails an unacceptable premise, but they don't understand entailment, they're stuck on deduction. Use induction to step back to the offending implicit predicate and then back off and let them deal with the matter. To communicate effectively with anyone, you need to learn a little of their language. Fortunately, logic is easy -- much easier than actually thinking. Most people can get a handle on it in a month or so even if they've never seen it before.

Responses by Guardians, Artisans, Rationals, Idealists, All