What if College Isn’t Working for You?
By CollegeAdvisor on 06-24-2008
The only personality types that find that college isn’t working for them are the Artisans. Right? Absolutely wrong. People are often surprised to find that “intellectual” Rationals drop out along with every other personality type.
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What can push people to drop out of college? Finances; pressure from relationships including family, friends, and significant others; having no vision or idea of how college can benefit; and not enjoying the college life experience. Here are some stories about people who dropped out:
Jim, a Rational Mastermind, had a lot of conflict with his roommate. He wasn’t sure of his major and didn’t seem to have much direction. He dropped out for a year and worked at low paying jobs. He joined a church and started to make friends. He learned that he was competent at his jobs, but that the jobs didn’t interest him. He really looked inward, developed his faith and a new vision of himself. He then went back to college in a different major. Now he is married with a family and loves his job as a data guru.
Julia, a Guardian Supervisor, was an officer in a high school club. She had lots of friends. When she became a commuter college student, her father went out of state to see a woman he’d met online. He decided not to come back home, and her mother filed for divorce. All that was normal seemed to dissolve. She quit school to take a job to help her mother support her two younger siblings. Julia’s sense of responsibility won’t let her go back to school until she and her mother get her siblings through high school.
Mike’s parents had divorced and both were remarried. He was a member of two blended families. A Rational Architect, he had a hard time dealing with the emotional fall-out. One step-brother had problems with drugs and had gotten his girlfriend pregnant. Mike started community college, but hated living around the emotional turmoil in his family. He quit to join the Coast Guard and is very happy in his choice. He’s appreciated for his technical know-how and his calm demeanor.
Maylene, an Idealist Healer, lived with her mother and step-father and two younger sisters. Her oldest sister had left home at 18 and worked as a merchandiser. A rich aunt died leaving the girls a significant sum of money. When Maylene’s turned 18, she used the money to get an apartment, buy a new car and enroll in a private college. All the money was gone by the end of the first year. She had a hard time adjusting to attending community college so she dropped out. It wasn’t until she was happily married with a family that she finally went back to college and graduated.
Dean. an Artisan Crafter, started school because his well-educated parents insisted that if he was going to live at home, he either had to work and pay rent or else go to college. Dean was always in the garage rebuilding motorcycles for himself and his friends. He started working part-time in an auto parts store. He developed a number of contacts and finally quit school to work in a shop that customized motorcycles. He’s developing quite a reputation for his craftsmanship and innovations. He’s also living in his own place and his parents respect his choices.
Many other stories could be told—the Rational Fieldmarshal male who went out of state to school, but dropped out after one term to go to the same school as his buddies; the Rational male who went to a school 200 miles from home but couldn’t keep up his grade point average so he could stay in school. At home his parents had taken responsibility for reminding him to study and he was unable to do it for himself. You may think that I am focusing too much on Rationals, but I could tell just as many stories for any personality type.
The bottom line is that college works best when the student is in a reasonably stable emotional situation, has some ownership and vision on how the college education will be beneficial and can establish a minimal financial backing for the effort. Without these benefits, attending college may not be feasible.
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Posted by unders on Jun 28, 2008
I went to an ivy league school. And, i personally think colleges are overrated, especially brand name ones. I've learned the most by doing things and reading things myself. More so than doing assignments. I graduated recently, but i have to say, it took a while to get here. There were many times i wanted to drop out, and i took a semester off because i had no idea what to do with my life because the things i learned in the classroom just didn't seem applicable in real life. I'm a young entrepreneur, and I've found that during this past year of running a young start-up, i've learned more than my 4 years in college, and most of it was by reading books and trying things out. I think colleges and formal education was built for Js especially for guardians. Especially the whole deal with testing and finals. I prefer projects myself. I think for P idealist, P rationals, and artisans, the educational system must be revamped. This makes sense since Ps are estimated to represent about 40-45% of the american population according to capt.org |
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Posted by LisaFairhurst on Jun 29, 2008
Your stats are interesting and your explanations make sense. How would you revamp the educational system? What needs to change? As a teacher, I can tell you that projects are a double-edged sword. Some students will wait until the last minute, put together a half-assed project and expect to pass. |
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Posted by Pat on Jun 29, 2008
Susan Pinker's book "The Sexual Paradox" follows the careers of a number of highly successful women who dropped out of the work force and a number of boys with such things as ADHD, dyslexia, etc who dropped out of school. To her surprise many of the the boys, a lot of whom seemed to be SP or NT, were quite successful either as entrepreneurs or in the demanding, hand-on "dirty jobs" TV has just recently started to glorify. The girls, meanwhile, went on to their successes in a rather Guardian way with a lot less speed, but dropped out either because they weren't making a difference in the world, the "shark" model prevailed in their firm, or the long hours interfered with their love of their families to the point of "I'm no longer going to make that kind of sacrifice for my career." And the girls with ADHD by and large stuck it out - and sought careers in helping other ADHD people. The only boys who stuck it out were those with an obsessive interest in, say, nuclear physics, who overcame their brain wiring to pursue that interest. I see a clear set temperamental differences here as well as or even instead of the gender difference Pinker sees. (Pinker gives very little attention to the atypical girl, whom I characterize, after an old joke in the sf community, as "us grils." Except to say that they operate like men.) |
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Posted by Malkyru on Jun 29, 2008
I dropped out...like...four times. hehe. Need I say more? I was planning on blogging it and became sidetracked, but I will if anyone so desires to hear the story. Anyway, I am going the entrepreneurial route. College just didn't suit me. |
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Posted by unders on Jun 30, 2008
hi LisaFairHurst, Thanks for your reply. I don't think i have any holistic solution that will solve the educational problem so that it is fair to all types. But, maybe a good place to start is to educate teachers and the education board of types and the vast differences of learning types out there. After learning of the Myerbrigg typlogy, it is very shocking how people judge others by their own set of ideas and rules (as i made the same mistake too), often you can tell a lot about a person by how their judge others, rather than fall into the trap of taking their side of the judgement. I think ENFPs make good teachers because they accept people for who they are and has the NP skill to intuit different kinds of thinking. To bad, there arnt a lot of them. As for the project issue. I know a good way to encourage and help kids who procrastinate on projects, is to set regular checkpoint or deadlines. For example, if you were to ask your class to do a report on a country. You may start having them decide on a country by the end of this week, then make them find at least 8 sources by the end of next week. By, the the end of the third week, they should have their introduction written, and a quick outline of their paper handed in. In a month, they will have to hand in a un-graded but fully finish rough draft (grade based on completion). A week after this, a graded rough draft will be due. And, finally the final report is due. This whole process would probably span a month and a half. But, for myself, as a heavy procrastinator (scored high on the P), i found when teachers implemented this back in HS, it helped me out a lot. You can ever break the steps down into further steps, such as having a student write a quick summary of the sources first. I hope my ideas help! |
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Posted by unders on Jun 30, 2008
Also, I believe ADHD is not a disorder or a mental condition. It is just more of an extreme on the P scale. I think it's horrible that they drug kids. Instead, kids should be taught to manage their thoughts. If you think about it, the very opposite applies too. Think of an extreme SJ, these people tend to have to learn to relax more and be more open minded to ideas. They usually need to work on their creatively skills. But, since these qualities are NOT part of the formal education, these extreme SJ people arent considered "disordered". Homosexuals used to be labeled as a people with mental disorders. Ultimately, i hope, like being gay, ADHD will no longer be labeled as an disorder. I should probably disclose that I was diagnosed with ADHD myself during my senior year in college. I found it funny that I was able to achieve a 3.7 unweighted GPA in HS, score the top of my class in AP chem, and get into a IVY league school. Yet when college failed to interest me, and I went to see a psychiatrist, they suggested i do some ADHD testing, which i agreed to because I was curious about the process. After 6 hours of what felt like an IQ test, I was diagnosed with ADHD. Also, i wish i had the time to study some of the questions on the test, but i believe the questions that asked you "what shape comes next..?" is flawed because for an artist the shapes can be interpreted in so many different way. I remember, myself looking at the question and found 2 possible answers, which i thought to myself, i bet this shape is the one they are looking for as the next possible shape, even though if you actually look at both shapes though different mental lenses they are both equally right. I wish i had a paper copy of the test, but apparently they are not allow to give them to you because it is proprietary. |
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Posted by unders on Jun 30, 2008
Oh yea, so now i can get perscriptions to both adderal and ritalin, which i tried only for my finals week. Curiously, i found ritalin turned me into a zombie and actually inhibited me from thinking. Aderral, helped me super-zone in to what i was studying, but did not necessary help me think. What's the difference? Studying may involve the learning of retaining of information. while, thinking involves the RELATING information. And, when you are sitting a desk trying to relate information on the books to possible experiences you will have or may have had, you need to use your imagination... and this is where the circuits for ADHD in your brain needs to kick in. For example, when i learn physics, I have to form a mental picture of the situation that is happing (e.g. tire rolling down a 45 degree angle, or roller coaster speed at the top of the loop giving a coefficient of friction.) |
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Posted by LisaFairhurst on Jun 30, 2008
Regarding ADHD, I'll respond as a teacher and as a mom. Two of my children have been diagnosed with ADHD. Neither has it in my opinion. I could tell the psychiatrist thought I was in denial regarding my daughter since she never sits still and is constantly bouncing around. She's 9. Their supposed ADHD does not keep them from achieving adequately to well in school, so they have no real impairment. My daughter's teachers keep telling me she could do better. My reaction is so what. Apparently she currently has no incentive to do better. She's not getting behind, so she'll pull it out when it will benefit her. .............................................. As a teacher, I have had quite a few students diagnosed with ADHD, some medicated and some not. Generally speaking, the students are Artisans who are behaving like Artisans. Fortunately, I work in a charter school with small classes. I have the time to scrape them off the ceiling. However, periodically, I get an unmedicated student who is suffering academically and absolutely cannot stay on task. That is a problem. ........................................... Regarding your ideas on projects: that's how my kids' teachers do them. It is the best way to do them. However, as a parent, I despise projects. I hate running around finding what they need to make whatever it is. I loathe the last minutes screams, tantrums, and meltdowns. I have two autistic children who have a lot of difficulty with long-term projects. |
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Posted by Pat on Jun 30, 2008
I do have to say personally that the method of breaking everything down into small steps and then making a to-do list of even the smallest steps (find out the color paint. Get paint. Keep receipt.) works in everything but writing. I'm of the "Write first, then produce outline" writers. |
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Posted by unders on Jul 1, 2008
Hmm, i've always found arts and crafts projects a waist of time. Especially today with computer technology and the internet, everything could be done by powerpoint, slideshows. My little sister who is only 5 can already use the basic functions of a computer well. I really think it depends on the project. Just like tests, and hws, there are bad questions, bad tests, and bad projects. I found myself that most middle school and elementary school teacher are not good at designing tests. While in college, test arn't designed well because they designed to get a bell curve. For example, if i ask out of 5 questions, 1 easy-one like what is the color of the sky?, 2 medium-level ones like do bats sleep in daylight or nite & which country is older US or europe?, then two really hard ones what is the color of my (this case the teachers) car, and what whats the exact score of the 1982 world series?. If you give this to a group of very well studied people, and then to a group of normal high-school student, i bet the bell curve wouldn't necessary put the well-studied individuals on the top. The bell curve is a natural distribution of many things in nature and in probability. So, it is likely that a few people will get those really tough questions right based on guessing even though they didn't know the answer. These people will thus be put on the top of the bell curve. My point is, most instructor Prof. & teachers dont consider the student's perspective when doing a project or making a test. And, the teacher who assigned the arts and crafts project to your kid, probably didn't think about the fact that the kids will have to get the parents to but all the art supplies for them, since they are not common household items. Its seems like, once again, teachers do these petty arts and crafts project because they have always been done. But, what is the point, would u ask? I never learned much from them. |
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Posted by LisaFairhurst on Jul 2, 2008
The arts and crafts stuff is designed for the Guardians and Artisans who tend to do better with concrete materials. Rationals tend to think of it as mickey mouse. |
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Posted by unders on Jul 7, 2008
haha, exactly.. |
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Posted by unders on Jul 7, 2008
I myself really love the arts. But, i guess it was just the way the elementary school teachers approached it..they made it more systematic than artistic. You were taught to follow directions in the steps that you glue paper and paint. But, i the the true purpose of art is to stimulate creation. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think arts and crafts is predominately meant for the guardians, like you said. However, i think even for the artisans it maybe too systematic and not enough action for them? |
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Posted by InventorChampionIntuitive on Jul 22, 2008
Unders makes some excellent comments here. As an ENTP, let me suggest that the P has something to do with it. Ps, and especailly NP's have the greatest difficult with due dates, formal papers, turning things in on time, registering for classes, and all of the formalisms of higher education. At the same time, ENFPs, and NPs in general are likely to take a non-traditional route and to avoid the standard path. I think the best way to educate NPs is to give them open ended projects. A trip to the science museum, for example, has plenty of things to initiate and explore, and has no required completion. NPs like exploring and hate completing, so open ended, exploration based projects are the thing to do. Also, ENFPs and EPs, are dominant intuitives. My expectation is that intuitives would do well in college, but hate pre-college schooling. That was the case for me. I hated school before college, which was Guardian based (academically) and Artisan based (sports and socially). When I got to college, it was like "WOW, THERE ARE PLACES FOR INTUITIVES IN THE WORLD!" Unders, regarding the study you mention, is it strange that 1/3 of the entering class dropped out of school? I don't know that any liberal arts colleges have a 1/3 drop out rate, even over four years. |
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Posted by InventorChampionIntuitive on Jul 22, 2008
My experience with schooling prior to college is that it always seemed to be structured in a very artificially judging way. Learning and developing ideas and understanding the world seems to me to be very much a task about exploring rather than completing. I always wondered why school was set up around tests, quizes, and homework assignments. After I entered the work world, I was amazed that most completion oriented activities are artificial social constructs rather than natural phenomenon. One of the things I like about the work world rather than a school environment is that (at least at the higher managerial levels) there is less required J tasks. |
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Posted by InventorChampionIntuitive on Jul 22, 2008
My experience with schooling prior to college is that it always seemed to be structured in a very artificially judging way. Learning and developing ideas and understanding the world seems to me to be very much a task about exploring rather than completing. I always wondered why school was set up around tests, quizes, and homework assignments. After I entered the work world, I was amazed that most completion oriented activities are artificial social constructs rather than natural phenomenon. One of the things I like about the work world rather than a school environment is that (at least at the higher managerial levels) there is less required J tasks. |
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Posted by Skatt on Sep 13, 2008
I think that the problem with schools is that all the solutions are looked at as a compromise that they expect can be perfected to work mostly for all types. The truth of the matter is that certain types really need to be in entirely different classes from other types. Usually when I bring up this point the people around me start talking about the different groups feeling inferior to each other, this isn't a valid argument since the same results occur in the current system. The type preferences really should be integrated into the education system. I have found that I can only focus on learning but, cannot focus on producing results for other people. I'm 23 now and I have failed almost every single class I have ever taken. If I passed a class it was only because the teacher managed to see that I was learning everything even though I didn't turn in the assignments. In testing, I can produce outstanding results. Often achieving scores in the upper percentiles of every subject. It seems though that I have never come across anyone capable of offering proper guidance for me. I have no idea what I want to do or where I fit in now. School is never going to work for me, I can't even force myself to just do the work for the grade. I can't figure out how to get a break into a career that's worthwhile. I don't have the resources to become an entrepreneur at the moment and won't anytime soon. Am I supposed to accept the cards I have been dealt and just work at a short-order cook for life? Accept that a mind like mine is supposed to go wasted in this society? |
Actually, it appears that artisans are not really the ones most likely to drop out. In the Oct '05 Journal of Psychological type (Vol. 65 issue 4) titled "Personality Type Among Undergraduates who Withdraw from Liberal Arts Colleges," published by the center for applied psychological type capt.org, it appears that" people with the NP preference, especially ENFPs are the most likely to drop out. I think it makes a lot sense that NP's are most likely to drop out because they are the ones who can themselves link ideas together, while at the same time the P makes them want to me experimental and apply things to the real world. It goes along with the self-learning/trying it in the real-life aspect among engineering rationals and even idealists alike. Here is the quote from the article: "Undergraduate Students preferring P, NP, especially ENFP appear to be statistically more likely to withdraw from college before graduation" I looked at the stats and P's represented 68.78 percent of the withdrawal students (P<.05). NP represented 50.07% of the withdrawal students (p<.001). And, ENFPs represented 18.41% of the withdrawal students (p<.05). While, Js were very underrepresented (38.22% w/ P<.05) The sample was n= 679 dropouts out of the 1,856 entering freshman at a small liberal arts college in the southeast. The college appears to be unnamed. However, i think the results are really clear with a high percentage at a narrow confidence level. NPs, with ENFPs leading, are the most likely to become college dropouts. What do you think?